Zion Lights is the UK Director for a group called Environmental Progress, which is a research and policy organization fighting for clean power and energy justice to achieve nature and prosperity for all.
She was previously a spokesmen for Extinction Rebellion, and she’s the author of the book: The Ultimate Guide to Green Parenting, she’s written for the Huffington Post, and you can find her Ted Talk on YouTube here.
We discuss the value of nuclear power, and why it’s important to talk with people you may not agree with.
Laura (32s):
Hello everyone. And welcome to the zero waste countdown podcast and radio show. Today we’re speaking
with Zion Lights. She has been in the environmental world for a very long time, and she’s the UK director of a
group called environmental progress. Zion, welcome to the show.
Zion (47s):
Thank you. Hi Laura. Thanks for having me.
Laura (49s):
So I want to learn a little bit about who you are and what you’re currently doing and what you’re working on.
And hopefully we can talk about nuclear a little bit, which is kind of been an interest of mine lately. So can
you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you’re currently working on?
Zion (1m 9s):
So I have quite a long history of experience in environmental campaigning and activism and writing. So,
which I know a lot of people think is odd when they then hear that I am now an advocate for nuclear energy,
but actually for me, it’s a complete, you know, natural evolution from worrying about the state of the
environment and climate change and moving on towards solutions and thinking about, you know, what are
the best kind of ways to tackle some of the biggest issues that we, we face, which having read a lot of the
research, I would not have say, you know, I’m strongly in favor of nuclear energy.
Zion (1m 50s):
And I kind of came up for that recently and it caused a bit of, you know, cause some waves in the media.
And that part of that was around kind of speaking to Mike, who I’d had some contact with previously in my
role as the spokesperson for extinction rebellion UK, where he was quite critical of some of our approaches
and the things that we were saying. And I actually, you know, I spoke to Matt and she said, well, I’ve seen
your Ted talk and I, I agree with you on nuclear because you know, I can see that the numbers add up the
it’s just the facts speak for themselves.
Zion (2m 25s):
And, and kind of off the back of that month, months later, we got in touch again and he offered me this role
as the director of environmental progress in the UK, which is a position that I still hold now. So I think that
was back in April that he offered me the role.
Laura (2m 38s):
So did that happen because you guys disagreed on something? Like, I think my understanding is this is
Michael Shellenberger, by the way, if you’re listening, he’s been on our show as well. So I think you guys had
like a little bit of like differences and then you talk to each other for Michael’s book and then you ended up
working together. Is that kinda how that went?
Zion (2m 58s):
That’s exactly how it went. I know it sounds really unusual, but he, he actually wrote an article about me for
Forbes. I think it was, and it had a picture of me gratitude, Berg, AOC, bill McKibben, and I think like a
qualifier or something. And it said everything environmentally say about the environment is wrong. And it
quoted me in this television interview that I’d been on Andrew Neosho over here. And yeah, someone,
several people sent the article to me the day that it was published.
Zion (3m 29s):
And I was kind of like, Hey, you know, that’s not really, you know, that’s not really fair what he’s saying there.
So I got in touch with him and he said, well, let’s talk. And we had a quite heated discussion. And he said,
you know, you’ll, you’ll call it. You were saying that we’re all going to be extinct. And I’m saying, no, I’m
talking about, you know, the levels of extinction that are occurring. And we kind of just, we went back and
forth and a lot of things, but I kind of, the nuclear thing came up and I just said, look, I agree with you on a lot
of things. We’re not completely at loggerheads here. And he was really surprised. And then, you know, much
later months later got in touch again, and then we had a conversation about it.
Zion (4m 1s):
And he said, you know, you would be the great advocate for this, if you were willing to, to take it public, you
know? And I said, well, actually, I’ve, I’ve never, I’ve, you know, it, wasn’t kind of hiding that. I, my stance on
nuclear, it was more that it was irrelevant to what I was doing because in XR, the, in extinct rebellion, they
don’t really focus on solutions. So it wasn’t really something that came up as part of the campaigning. But I
was starting to feel that actually it was time to move towards solutions. And I kind of thought, well, if I throw
my weight behind anything with all my kind of expertise, it would, it would be, it would be this because there
aren’t enough advocates, not, not enough kind of powerful advocates for nuclear at the moment.
Zion (4m 37s):
So I very gladly accepted the role.
2 (4m 42s):
So what I want to say about that is that I think it’s amazing and so important now, more so than ever, that we
talk to people we disagree with. And I think if we do, we end up finding that we have a lot of commonalities
and similarities. And so I think that this is a wonderful story really about how you and Michael ended up
getting along afterward. Right. There’s so much like blame and like negativity. I find that’s coming into the
environmental movement.
Laura (5m 14s):
And I think if we, we all just talk a little bit more, that it’ll be kind of better for everyone, right? So yeah, this is
super cool.
Zion (5m 27s):
Absolutely. And actually, you know, some of the criticisms I’ve had from people saying, you know, who said
to me, how can you work with Mike? He believes there, so that I’ve kind of said, do you believe, do you know
anyone where you believe all the same things, do you work with anyone will have, have you ever had any
boss where you agree with everything we’ve got to stop being so ridiculous about that? You know, people
have different views that’s okay. But ultimately he and I are completely aligned, believing that nuclear is one
of the biggest solutions to, to, to so many problems that the world faces and, and that’s, that’s really
important.
Zion (5m 60s):
And that that’s enough for me, you know, it’s a real shame that things have become so polarized people
don’t speak to each other or people become very tribal. And, you know, I think it’s really important that we
reach out to people who have different views to us and just, just accept that, that, you know, that’s the way
of the world and that that’s okay. It doesn’t mean that you’re wrong, you know, and I, and I say that, you
know, it probably makes me sound quite naive, but I have quite a long history of, of doing this. So when my
book was published several years ago, the ultimate guide to being parenting, it’s an evidence based book on
how to lower your carbon emissions as a family.
Zion (6m 36s):
And there’s a chapter on there, in there on vaccines. And it caused, again, it caused a big ruckus in the kind
of green parenting community where that traditionally tend to be a lot of people who don’t believe in
vaccination. And I completely, you know, had some incredible conversations with people and I’m not going to
say I converted lots of people because, you know, I wouldn’t claim that, but certainly some of those
conversations were really important because sometimes it was just addressing people’s concerns about
vaccines that they didn’t have anywhere else to go to. And even, you know, in this case, some of them had
said, they’d had gone to say like their doctrine, they’d sort of been laughter and that’s, that’s kind of
sometimes where the problem comes from it’s it’s from the communicators and the professionals.
Zion (7m 13s):
It’s not, you know, you can’t always blame people and say, well, they believe something that’s really against
the science. Well, we’ve got, who’s communicating the science. We’ve got to do that first before we can just
write people off and say, wow, you know, they don’t understand what’s going on
Laura (7m 26s):
With regards to you speaking to people. And, and you know, you’re going on shows where people might not
agree with you. I think you do a wonderful job at keeping very calm. And an interesting thing I heard you say
was that facts don’t change people’s minds. It’s whether people trust you. And I think we see this a lot as
well, that, you know, you can, you can give people facts and they just don’t want to believe them because
they’re so interested in keeping their old opinions.
Laura (7m 58s):
It seems. And I think we see this in the green community now with wind and solar, we’ve just been told for so
long that wind and solar are the answers. And then we’re seeing that, you know, they’re not the answers.
Have you been watching what’s happening in California with rolling blackouts?
Zion (8m 18s):
I have. Yes. And there’s also Germany as a case study, importing coal. In fact, we just did it here. When,
when our wind power wind turbine stopped turning, we had to import coal to fill the gap.
Laura (8m 29s):
Yeah. So Germany, you you’ve spoken about that a little bit as well. I think they stopped some of their, their
power plants to start burning coal. Again, were those nuclear plants that they should do.
ZIon (8m 40s):
They have a plan to phase out all nuclear, even if it means relying on coal for longer, that’s their complete
that’s, that’s their, their mission. And, you know, you can imagine what what’s happening there. That’s not,
it’s not a great plan if you want to bring emissions down, but there’s a strong antinuclear sentiment there.
And it’s, there’s a similar thing happening in France. So they close fests and home recently say re oldest
reactor had been operating for about 50 years. Never had a problem. It was closed due to public pressure.
And kind of some of the, you know, Greenpeace is very active, they’re anti nuclear.
Zion (9m 13s):
So, but boy, I would say is on your point about environmental ism. I think actually this is a problem that
affects like every area. So like, you know, it’s not just environmentally look at what’s happening with the
mass protests now in America. I mean, it, there’s a real kind of tribalism around views on evidence-based
and there’s, there are a lot of conspiracy theories and with nuclear, there are so many conspiracy theories,
even when I’ve shown. And this is what I mean when I say the facts don’t, you know, speak to a lot of
people, you’re show them the data that says, look, you know, what you believe about Fukushima killing
thousands of people with radiation is a lie.
Zion (9m 51s):
Nobody died from radiation at Fukushima. People will say that’s because they covered it up. It’s very hard.
Once that conspiracy theory kind of gets in, it’s really hard to unpick that and to move past it. But I think it’s
always about just having the conversations and kind of looking at it in a wider context. So the reason we
launched nuclear and at zero recently is to try and put it in a wider context of, or it’s, we’re not just fighting for
it for the sake of it. Look up, look up, look at all the world’s problems that we’re facing. Nuclear is a great
option, is a great solution in terms of these things.
Laura (10m 21s):
If you’re going to fear things and have, you know, worries about things, have a look at things, you know, like
climate change or air pollution. That’s a thing that people often don’t think about, but you know, the air
pollution that comes from burning coal, well, sure we can import it. I’ve even had someone argue with me on
Twitter the other day, quite well known person. You said, you know, it’s just a few days of coal. And I said,
that’s because we don’t have to live near the coal plants that are causing respiratory conditions. And the
people who live there who tend to be really poor. And when I saw that, when that happened in the Punjab in
India, my parents are from those people don’t even have electricity, the people who are suffering, living
there, those coal plants.
Zion (10m 59s):
So let’s, let’s be honest about the things that, you know, that are the real issues instead of having, you know,
made up fears of something that is actually a solution.
Laura (11m 10s):
So do you think that I, we talked to Michael about this as well. Like, do you think that developing countries
should go to nuclear like earlier than we did, because it seems that you have to build up, like you have to go
through the process of coal and then, you know, maybe you can go to natural gas and then hopefully
nuclear, like, do you see that as well? That there’s sort of a progression. And do you think nuclear is kind of
like the best end all energy option that we have? It
Zion (11m 40s):
Absolutely is, but I agree that leapfrogging isn’t straight into it. Isn’t always an option. But what I would say is
there’s no reason for people in Britain or, you know, the developed countries for transition completely to
nuclear, which would allow developing countries to make those transitions if they need to.
Laura (11m 60s):
Yeah. So I, I was wondering if you’ve heard of these batteries that you can use with a little bit of nuclear
waste, and I was just sort of wondering what you thought about that. If you’ve heard of them, you can
basically charge your phone for about 5,000 years, if you use a tiny bit of nuclear waste and then in crusted
in like a diamond case so that it doesn’t, you know, radiate people. Have you heard about that? Yeah,
Zion (12m 22s):
I have heard about that. What I would say is there a lot of these potential kind of technologies on the horizon
and they sound amazing and it may be that we get, you know, get some of them soon and it will solve our
problems really quite quickly. But there is a little bit of a danger of people kind of hyper focusing on them
because I get you wouldn’t believe the amount of links and things I get sent to all of these potentially new
technologies. And why I keep saying is let’s, you know, let’s just remember that we have something that’s
really good right now that works now. And that’s great. That’s really great if those things work out, but
they’re, you know, they’re just potentials on the horizon at the moment.
Zion (12m 58s):
And it is a little bit similar to what I’ve heard in the environmental movement about battery storage for
renewables. It’s just, it’s around the corner. You know, it’s going to solve all our problems and we’ll have a
hundred percent renewables and I’ve heard that for about 15 years. So I’m a little bit more skeptical than
other people about these ideas of new tech, but, you know, obviously welcome at all of them. And I hope, I
hope that there are great advancements made, you know, in the coming years because it will help with so
many of the issues that we face today.
2 (13m 25s):
Yeah. That’s like the 15 years of the battery storage, right? Like I think that’s the thing with wind is if only we
could store it, but it doesn’t really seem like that technology is going to come if ever. So it probably makes
more sense to go nuclear. And, and I just worry about, especially my own country where it’s so cold, if we go
to rolling blackouts, because our grid is made up of so much wind and solar that, you know, people could
freeze here.
Laura (13m 58s):
Like, I, I am kind of against messing with our energy grid in Canada, just because so much is on the line.
And I really worry about Canadians cause a lot of us heat our homes with electricity, right. So I do worry that
our green party here is trying to still push the wind and solar, but we do have nuclear on our, on our grid
where I live anyway, which is kinda neat. And you know, it provides a lot of good jobs. I think it’s very safe.
The waste isn’t as much as you may think, I’m sure you’ve seen those pictures with the, the, the carpets
hanging and stuff.
Laura (14m 37s):
That was pretty cool. What do you think about the waste? Like do you think, do you think we should be
worried about it? Like what is your opinion on nuclear waste?
Zion (14m 47s):
I don’t think we should be worried about it from what I’ve read. And I do incur, I, you know, again, I always
say, I know people don’t always enter in just reading up, reading up the facts, but I encourage anyone to
have a look at just how well managed and stored it is in most cases. And if that doesn’t happen, it’s a, you
know, it’s an issue to put pressure on the government to make sure that they do do whoever’s running that
country because the, when it’s done well, it’s extremely done extremely well. It’s completely safe. It’s very
minimal. It’s not, you know, people have this idea that it’s this kind of sloppy liquid that goes everywhere that,
you know, it’s toxic and it’s green.
Zion (15m 21s):
And that, that comes from popular culture, like the Simpsons. And it’s actually really, really, that is
sometimes, well, quite often what I’m dealing with when I talk to people waste it’s, you know, these little solid
cylinders are buried. It’s completely fine. And also let’s stop using the word safe. When we talk about nuclear
people keep saying, Oh, I think maybe I agree. It’s safe. D D let’s look at it this way. Does anyone ever say
that about fossil fuels? Do you know what fossil fuels aren’t safe? Let’s be honest. And in the UK, we were
massively relied on them. We about 40% of our energy comes from gas.
Zion (15m 53s):
No one ever talks about whether it’s safe or not. There’s quite a lot of energy to be getting from a source that
the data shows is, is far more dangerous than nuclear, you know, deaths and illnesses from the extraction
process, from air pollution, from contributing to global warming. If you look at, you know, somewhere like our
world in data.org, I think it is. If you look at the actual numbers on there, it just, they speak for themselves.
That nuclear is, you know, it’s not about whether or not you believe he is the safest option eat.
Zion (16m 23s):
And that is including the disasters that we will have it burned into our memories because of the way that kind
of the media responded to them, which is Chernobyl and Fukushima actually the, even, even then
comparing the people that were the small number of people that were harmed in those disasters. It’s nothing
compared to what happens in the fossil fuel industry. It’s just that we don’t seem to be so aware of that.
Laura (16m 46s):
Hmm. Yeah. That’s a good point for sure. Yeah. People are scared of it. I’ve done little polls on social media
and, and people are still very against it, especially in the environmental world. So is that, is that
environmental progress, is that your main focus is nuclear.
Zion (17m 4s):
It is at the moment. Yes. And particularly because I’m in the UK and there’s a decision coming here,
imminently. So it’s this month, the government’s deciding on whether or not they will press ahead with
building Sizewell and more side. So a lot of our, our reactors are due to shut down in the next kind of 10 to
15 years. So we really need this. These we need, we need these plants to be built basically, but they’ve,
there’s been a lot of, I mean, an honoring and going back and forth and a decision has not yet been made.
And it’s, it looks like it’s coming this month.
Zion (17m 35s):
So I’m really, I’m putting all my energy into that at the moment. Just trying, trying to, you know, trying to have
discussions about it, trying to move the discussion on a pass, this whole idea of, you know, safety, this
obsession with safety build, you know, that actually we are heavily reliant on fossil fuels in this country at the
moment. And as I say recently, we had a heat wave. We went down from using 20% wind to 4%. The gap
had to be filled with coal. Where does that come from? Know these are really important conversations to be
having over here.
Zion (18m 6s):
So that’s completely my focus until this meeting happens in mid September. And that’s also why we
launched nuclear plant at zero in Ipswich, which is a town near where Sizewell is due to be built. And we’ll be
doing another action there soon as well, just to sort of, you know, generate some debate about it in the
press.
Laura (18m 24s):
So there’s a, a nuclear plant that is going to be built in the UK, is that right?
Zion (18m 30s):
There is a plan for Sizewell to be built. And if Sizewell is built, there’s another plant called more side and it
would use this exactly the same kind of model. So, you know, it’d be a lot quicker and cheaper to build done
size well, but, but this kind of plan has been floating around for a while and it, you know, the, the approval
hasn’t gone ahead and yeah, the, the government, he is making a decision on it imminently this month
Laura (18m 57s):
Is the biggest concern with the government that they might not be safe. Like, is that kind of the only,
Zion (19m 5s):
No, I don’t think it is that all. I think actually it’s, they’re just, they don’t want to upset the public, you know,
and they’re not sure where public opinion lies. I would say that a lot more people are pro-nuclear on the
fence than people are aware of them. Politicians are aware of. And that’s because there are so many high
profile antinuclear actions, which is why I traveled up to Ipswich on Monday and did the UK first pro nuclear
action, because actually there’s a, you know, it’s missing from, from the discussion and, and from the kind of
visibility of who’s out there and who believes what, what should happen because at the moment they can,
you can imagine they’re getting a lot of pushback.
Zion (19m 44s):
And I think that’s why it’s been delayed. I don’t think it’s that the government doesn’t think it’s safe. In fact,
Boris Johnson has openly said he, he supports nuclear, but a decision has not been made to build so as
well. And at the same time, you know, they’re talking about, it’s desperately needing this economic recovery
over here because of coronavirus wood. You know, we’re going to get at least 2000 jobs out of Sizewell. So
there are lots of different benefits to it. And yeah, I’m just really hoping that just getting a bit of press
coverage and debate going around, it will kind of help with help dissuade the decision in some way,
Laura (20m 17s):
A lot of jobs. And I heard that in Canada, they are like six figure jobs. And I don’t know how true that is. I
think maybe you have to work there a few years, but even, even the less skilled jobs at the nuclear plant in
Ontario are, are like fairly high paying. So it’s, it’s good. It’s good job.
Zion (20m 37s):
Absolutely. Yeah. There was an action actually recently, I don’t know if you saw it, somebody put a pay stop
Sizewell sign on the motorway near where the site, where the plan is due to be built. And it was graffitied by
a local person who sprayed over at jobs, not snobs, but it was quite funny
Laura (20m 58s):
Jobs, not snobs. That’s awesome. I didn’t know who it was,
Zion (21m 2s):
The local sentiment.
Laura (21m 5s):
That’s awesome. You know, I am, I am in favor of jobs. So when we talk about this, you know, let’s say we
have a problem with Coca Cola producing billions of plastic bottles and they end up in bad places. Right.
We’ve talked about this before, but it’s like, if you just got rid of Coca Cola, like you’d get rid of like so many
jobs that are, are taking care of people and feeding people and stuff. So sometimes the answer isn’t as
simple as just stop doing something. And I think this comes with the, keep it in the ground argument as well,
with oil and gas, like, especially in Canada, if we don’t have any oil and gas, how are we supposed to keep
building and developing and feeding ourselves and heating ourselves?
Laura (21m 46s):
I think it can be kind of a dangerous argument. So I’m excited for a future with nuclear. I, I think it is the
answer. The more I look into it and talk to experts like yourself. So this has been pretty wonderful to hear, to
hear you speak about it. And I wish we had more time.
Zion (22m 7s):
Probably. You can just point people toward my Twitter. That’s where I post all my updates.
Laura (22m 13s):
And on Twitter, her handle is at Xeon tree. So @ZIONTREE. And do you have any recommendations for
anyone who wants to get involved with the pro nuclear movement?
Zion (22m 28s):
Sure. So we’ve just set up a Facebook group called nuclear for net zero, come along and have a look at that.
If you’re in the UK and I’m very active on Twitter @ZionTree I’m really, really keen to engage with people on
all of the different issues and, and also kind of expanding beyond nuclear. As I say, it’s my focus right now,
because it’s the big kind of topic here in the UK, but I’m really interested in other science for evidence based
solutions for, you know, the problems that the world faces.
Laura (22m 59s):
Awesome. Well, Zion, it’s been really great talking to you, so I want to thank you for coming on the show and
it’s, it’s been great. So thank you.
Zion (23m 8s):
Well, thanks for having me, Laura.
Laura (23m 8s):
That was Zion lights. She is the UK director of environmental progress. If you haven’t heard about the rolling
blackouts in California, there are certainly worth looking into, especially if you’re from Canada, California,
hasn’t been taking care of their energy grid with the care and funding needed. So the maintenance of their
grid hasn’t been kept up to date, but what’s also troubling is that the green energy push for wind and solar
has left power levels, fluctuating so much that the blackouts have become necessary when solar power
production drops to about zero.
Laura (23m 44s):
Once the sun down, the temperatures are often so high in California, that people keep their air conditioners
running along with other power needs. Particularly there’s a high energy demand between 3:00 PM and
10:00 PM, solar and wind power doesn’t have good storage capacity. So when the sun goes down and the
wind stops blowing well, there’s no energy being produced. That’s why natural gas, plants and nuclear are
necessary. If you’re wondering why blackouts are so bad and why we can’t just brawl with them for the sake
of the environment, there are a lot of people who would die without power.
Laura (24m 21s):
There are people that need machines to breathe, or for other medical functions, people who can’t tolerate
high temperatures, there are hospitals keeping people alive that wouldn’t be able to without power, but that’s
only during the summertime and in Canadian winters and where it’s often minus 30 and sometimes even
minus 40 Celsius across the country. Sometimes for weeks at a time, we cannot risk energy grid meddling
that will lead to Canadians freezing to death. I think it’s important to recognize that wind and solar are not
going to power our grids, natural gas and even better nuclear willpower, our grids much more reliably.
Laura (25m 1s):
And yes, there is nuclear waste, but wind turbines for the most part are not recyclable. And either our solar
panels, neither of which lasts very long, which means they will all be going straight to our Canadian landfills.
And in the case of solar panels, they require a lot of destructive mining and both wind turbines and solar
require fossil fuels to make anyway, California wants to get to zero emissions power by 2045. So they
continue to add solar and wind to their grid with federal tax credits while still planning to shut down the
Diablo Canyon nuclear plant by 2024 and shutting down coastal gas plants, death Valley in California gets
extremely hot and reaches temperatures of over 54 degrees Celsius.
Laura (25m 44s):
But as we head into winter time here, hopefully California won’t experience any more energy blackouts for
the rest of the year. There’s a lot of talk recently by the liberal party that they’re planning some sort of green
recovery Shamus Oregan is tweeting about wind and solar development, but with the liberal party’s history of
awarding, their rich and well connected friends with contracts, I’d keep an eye on what they’re doing. It could
end up being away for the government to take money from taxpayers and give that money to their friends, to
build unreliable power that doesn’t help Canadians, but that actually could end up seriously harming people.
Laura (26m 20s):
If we ever get rolling blackouts like California this month, we are planning a show all about Ontario’s energy
grid. So we’ll get more into detail about this later in the month, but thank you so much for listening.
Remember to be kind to others. There is a very, very divisive time going on right now, and we don’t want it to
get worse and we don’t want people to get hurt and that sort of thing. So we really need to understand other
people’s points of view. So if you can try and listen to those who you disagree with and try and get along on
other issues.
Laura (26m 51s):
So for example, if you’re talking about politics and you don’t get along, think about something else you like. I
mean, even if it’s as simple as like cats on the internet, talk about a funny cat video, like you can always,
always find something with a person that you agree on and you need to build on those things and then kind
of maybe tread lightly around the things you don’t agree with, but just please don’t hate people that disagree
with you. It’s, it’s really bad and it’s obviously getting worse right now, but anyway, I hope you enjoy the show
and take care of yourself during this weird time.
Laura (27m 25s):
And if you have anything to let me know, you can email me laura@zerowastecountdown.com. Please follow
the show and give us a review on Apple podcasts. It really helps to show so you can click on there and give
us a review that will be excellent and tune in next week for the next episode until then take care of
yourselves. Thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.
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